The Pension Blueprint podcast video transcript 

Episode 9: Beyond the numbers: Analyzing retirement

Jackie DeSouza: Craig, it's wonderful to have you here on The Pension Blueprint.

Craig Worden: My pleasure, my pleasure.

Jackie: Today we're going to talk about retirement and Ontarians' feelings about retirement, both those who are retired and those who are non-retired.

Craig: It's pretty much our favorite thing is to talk about research, so happy to be here.

Jackie: So describe what Pollara does and what your role is.

Craig: So we're one of Canada's longest standing and premier public opinion and market research firms. We are active in doing quantitative and qualitative research across every sector, whether that's consumer research or public opinion, public affairs-oriented research, and we're there to serve clients and help them make better decisions ultimately through the use of research.

Jackie: Right, and in this case, what we're here to talk about really is some research that OMERS released that really speaks to retirement and how people feel about retirement. So can you tell us a little bit about that research? What did OMERS want to find out? And then also what were some of the key insights?

Craig: Yeah, so it was an exciting piece of research to dive into because OMERS came to us and said, we want to do something that is comprehensive, not just a small study. We want to do a study of Ontarians to find out how non-retired workers and retired Ontarians feel about how they planned or are planning for retirement, what their concerns are, what they wish they were doing better. And so we dove right into that to research that from a very holistic perspective. So not just focused in on finances like your typical study, but to focus in on what about physical health, what about mental health, what about social connections. These are all things that you need to be able to thrive in retirement.

Jackie: How are Ontarians feeling about retirement?

Craig: Retirees are happy, which is great for those of us who haven't retired yet to hear this, but eight in ten Ontarians who are retired are happy with retirement, and they're very happy. They don't have huge worries. That cohort of eight in ten who are happy, they're not concerned about finances, they're focused on their health. They're less focused on mental health, but they're not ignorant about it. They know what's there and they have to think about it. And they're focused on social, they're focused on their social lives and they're enjoying themselves. So when we ask them, you know, what's the best part of retirement? Yes, it's, you know, no more workplace stress, nobody telling me what to do. But the positives are I get to go travel, I get to spend more time with my family and see my kids and my grandkids more often, but I get to travel the world and see sites I haven't seen or things that were, you know, a bucket list that I wanted to see and I put it off for retirement and now we're going to go. So retirees are, you know, I would almost say it was almost surprising just how happy they are. They're very happy.

Jackie: Can you tell us a little bit about the size of this survey? You said it was comprehensive, so how many people were surveyed and what types of people were they?

Craig: So we did a survey, an online survey of over 1,500 Ontarians and that was a very robust sample, allowed us to get very reliable subsegments amongst retirees and non-retirees. So we can analyze both those cohorts with a lot of confidence and compare the results. And to give you a sense of the scope or the scale of this survey, when you see a survey in the news, typically there are a thousand Canadians on a national scale. This is 1,500 in Ontario alone, so a very robust sample. The survey itself was about 40 questions, if not more. Yeah, there were a lot of questions in this survey, so we don't always, you know, talk in terms of questions to talk about in terms of data points. And in terms of data points, there's probably about 40 to 50 data points in this because we did want to ask a lot of questions amongst each of these two cohorts, so the retirees and the non-retirees. So, you know, when I say this is a groundbreaking study, it goes back to that as well, that this is a big sample, a long survey and one that covered that holistic focus of retirement planning in terms of the four pillars, not just finances.

Jackie: Great, so tell us what are some of the key findings of the survey?

Craig: You know, there is a lot in this survey because it is quite a large survey in terms of the number of questions that were asked. But I'd say, you know, there's sort of three key takeaways for me. One is just how on board Ontarians are when looking at retirement planning to discuss and think about more than just the finances. And to think about that physical, mental health and social connection piece, they are very much on board with this. They want to do more on these other pillars. They wish they did more amongst the retirees. So they're very much on board with this more holistic focus on retirement plan, it's not just about the money anymore, it's about everything.
In terms of a second takeaway, not that surprising. We've seen it before, but this is such a robust survey that it really drove home the point. And that is, if you're under 50 years of age, there's a very good chance that you are not doing enough to prepare for retirement. And it's a real wake up call for everybody below the age of 50. Because when you leave it to the age of 50, if you really haven't done much at that point, it's kind of late in the game to start saving money, getting physically fit and making sure your mental health and your social connections are in place.

Jackie: Um hm, because that piece of it is so important. You can take care of the finances, but if you don't have, if all your social connections are in the office and you haven't built those relationships outside of work and then all of a sudden you're not working anymore, that could be quite eyeopening, right, when you retire. So did we see any sort of demographic differences in what we saw out of this research? You know, did older people have different thoughts than sort of younger ones who are in the workforce?

Craig: There's definitely that, there's definitely this retired experience. The retiree experience versus non-retired is interesting. But before I get to that, I think there's a demographic difference in terms of gender. And we've seen this for years, really comes through loud and clear in this study that women are less likely to be making plans for retirement than men. They're more likely in retirement to feel a sense of regret that they didn't do more on their own to make those plans. And they're more likely to feel concern and both in retirement and before retirement that they haven't done enough in terms of planning. And that's something that historically has been there because, you know, there's these sort of historical patterns of what men do and what women do. And it's changing definitely over the last couple decades.

But women still feel less comfort with finances. And so that's something that we should really focus on and try to improve.

Jackie: In terms of OMERS, we're a pension plan, we're talking to mainly our members today. And so, obviously we have that foundational income for them for a pension plan and we're doing much more of that holistic work with them to help them plan for their retirement. But what would your advice be basically for, you know, maybe young women in the workforce in terms of how can they start preparing right now?

Craig: Yeah, I think, I mean if we look at the four pillars, there's things that women and men can do on this and I would say the sooner the better. So if you look at the pillar of finances, get started as soon as you can, socking away some money into an RSP and it could be the smallest amount. But guess what, there's that magic of compound interest that happens. So you can start small and you can start to increase that as you go along. And I know that for new who are sort just out of school, they have less disposable income. So that's one of the reasons why you don't see young people investing as much or saving as much for retirement.

There's also that era of invincibility. I'm, you know, in my late twenties, my early thirties, I can't even conceive of being retired at this point, that sort of sentiment. And I get that. I've been there. I'm no longer there by many years now. But, you know, these are things that need to be overcome. But I think it's all about getting that first step. Get that first little bit of money into an RRSP where you then you're forced to have those six month or 12 month meetings with your financial advisor and they can kind of push you along and it gets you saving for retirement.
And then when it comes to the other pillars like physical health, it's important not to neglect the need for exercise and a proper diet. And what we see in this survey is that those in retirement, physical health is the key thing that they're concerned about. They're concerned about finances too, but right alongside it is their physical health.

Because yes, when you get older, the equipment starts to decline a little bit. It's been through a lot, but if you do what you can to make yourself as healthy and fit as possible before that, you'll have less concerns down the road.
And then there's the mental health pillar as well. And that's just, I think we've come a long way as a society, I think to destigmatize this. It's just important to be mindful that if you're feeling down, if you're finding life to be difficult, to talk to people so you can reach out to your immediate social and family network, but also be ready to reach out for professional help where necessary. And I think, you know, we're now in a place in Canada at least where I think we've de-stigmatized this. There's been a great, great education on that front. We do regular research on this and release it every two months. And we're seeing that the destigmatization is quite pervasive now. People are really on board with mental health and focusing on it. I think it's just important to focus on it in terms of you, not just everybody else.

And then the social connection piece, this is very important. I think it's very easy in those early years of work where you throw yourself into your job or even if you start to begin a family to neglect friends and family to some extent while you're in that period. But you have to make sure that you maintain those connections and nurture them because you're going to need them in retirement. And you always hear people say, oh, what am I going to do in retirement? Or, you know, I entered retirement, and I was bored, I didn't know what to do. Well, if you have those social connections, they're going to give you something to do. At the very least you'll meet them for coffee. But they might also... And that can help you on the mental health front 'cause it's somebody to talk to. But you also might do things with them, right? So you're going to get out of the house, you might even do some sports with them. You might go golfing or you might do some other things that help stimulate your brain like playing bridge or something like that. But you do these things, they're all interconnected and they all have a great benefit to help you thrive when retirement comes around.

Jackie: Did you find that there was a difference in response in this research from those who have a pension plan and those who may not?

Craig: Yeah, definitely. So if people who have a pension plan are across the board more positive on every factor that we surveyed about. So, one, they're more likely to say they had a plan. So obviously when you get hired into a job where they have a pension, you have a retirement plan thrust upon you in a partial way. It's not everything but it's a good piece of it. So you're instantly somebody who does have a plan of some kind, so you're saving money and you're taking care of part of that financial piece. But they're also more likely to say that before retirement, they're more likely to say that they're confident about retirement, they have less worries, and when they enter retirement, they're more likely to say that, retirement is great, I have less concerns. You know, everything is pretty hunky dory amongst that cohort. So, it's definitely a huge benefit.

Jackie: Right and did you find anything surprising in this research, any unexpected results that you wanted to talk about?

Craig: So one of the things that was surprising in a way, maybe more of a reminder is just how important physical health becomes. So what we found was that amongst retirees, when we asked them, what are your main concerns across these pillars that we're talking about. Finances, absolutely. And those who are unhappy in retirement, it's all about a lack of finances and the stresses that exist there. But most people are happy in retirement. So the one of the key concerns is physical health. So yes, we get older, you know, your body declines, no matter what you do, it's going to decline. But there is a strong desire amongst retirees that they wish they had done more beforehand to stay physically fit, to kind of help them sort of enter those declining years in terms of physicality at a higher level so that they don't drop as far. And that is their main concern in many ways, is physical health so let's avoid disease, let's make sure all these parts work still so that I can stay active and play a pickleball or whatever it is. But physical health really came through and we were thinking, you know, finances might be something that would come out on top and it was there, but physical health is actually more of a concern now for retirees.

Jackie: Hmm. And that's so important because it's not, it's physical health, it's not something you're just going to start doing after you retire, right? You have to sort of continue to do it through your whole life. So if you had to boil all of this research that you've done into some tips for people in Ontario, whether they're retired, young, older, not retired, and as they sort of look down the road, what would your advice be?

Craig: I do think it's about thinking early and not thinking late and taking care of all four pillars. So it's about saving money, it's about starting a fitness and healthy diet regime early. It's about being mindful about mental health. So it's just, it's something that can allude people. So even those who are mindful of other people and their mental health can often forget about themselves. So it's just be mindful of when you're going through a particularly difficult period and how it's impacting you and whether you need to talk to somebody, whether professional or not. And be mindful about keeping those social connections. Because sometimes we've seen focus groups with people and on retirement and some people will say, well, you know, I'll just take a break from my friends while I raise my kids and while I try and move up the ladder at work and I'll reconnect with them afterwards. Well that's like, that's 20 years later. They might not be there for you at that point. They might have moved on, they might hold a grudge, you never know. So, it's important to kind of maintain those connections. Maybe you can't see each other all the time, but at least stay in touch in some way.

Jackie: Yeah, no, that's really good advice. Craig, at OMERS we saw anecdotally at least that retirement isn't cut and dry. You know, some people continue working after retirement, maybe part-time, maybe doing some contract work. And so we wanted to learn more about this and have some hard data. What did Pollara find on this point?

Craig: Definitely, so we are seeing that people are taking a partial retirement or a semi-retirement and they're quite eager to, they like the idea, and you'll see it in focus groups. So people say, you know, I want to get out of the rat race, but then I want to be able to come in and I have this sort of independence where I would like to have that additional income in retirement, but I'm not completely reliant upon it. So I have some independence and I get to come in and mentor younger people, share my wisdom and do what I want and sort of apply the learnings I've gained over the past 20, 30 years of work. So there are those who are doing it because they need to. And then there's a good cohort out there who are doing it because it excites them. They find it invigorating in a mentally-stimulating way. And yeah, it brings them a little bit of extra cash and they can put it towards a vacation or something like that. But yeah, it is definitely a bit of a movement, yeah.

Jackie: So Craig, in terms of the way the world is right now and our economy is right now, why was it important to do this type of research at this point in time?

Craig: Yeah, I think OMERS was particularly interested in doing the survey now because they have a, it seems to be a laser focus on trying to help their members and they realize they're doing a lot on the financial front as a pension, you know, just inherently so. So, they have a real desire to do more and provide more value to their members. And I think they just looked at this and when they came to us, they said, we want to do a survey, and yes, it's going to have some finance elements to it, but we need to get beyond that because we know from talking to our members that retirement is more than just the finances. So let's explore that and let's explore it amongst retirees and non-retirees so that we can know what people are concerned about and what they need. And so we can help educate them and provide them with the services that they need.

And in the survey we actually ask some questions about whether people are receptive to actually going in and attending sessions to help them on finances, mental health, physical health and social connections. And three quarters said they were open to doing this. And that includes non-retirees and retirees. So retirees are less likely to attend these, but still about 6 in 10 said they would attend this even though they're already in retirement and doing a lot of this. But it was closer to three quarters for non-retirees who said they'd be open to attending sessions, that would be workshops and education sessions to help them understand how to do better and how to plan across the four pillars. So finance, physical health, mental health, and so on. So there is interest in this. So the survey was definitely on the right path, right? There's really, there's a wealth or a wellspring of interest in this. And so this is coming out at the right time.

Jackie: Yeah, and that's really good to know because we did launch a new session for our members, a new seminar called Preparing for Your 100 Year Life. And it's actually all about that—preparing in the various ways for retirement, not just your finances. And I think as my co-host on the podcast, Celine Chiovitti, our chief pension officer would say, she also feels a responsibility to educate not only our members, but also sort of broader, you know, Ontarians and Canadians about preparing for that next phase of your life, that next chapter of your life. You know, in terms of OMERS, yes, we're lucky, our members are lucky, they do have a pension plan and we are happy to support them, but there are many out there who don't have a pension plan, right? So, beyond Canada pension plan and old age security. So it's really about how can you prepare, how can every individual prepare for that next chapter in their life.

Craig: Yeah, definitely. It's worthy of applause that this is a survey not just of OMERS members, but of the public writ large, because well, you never know who's going to join the pension plan at some point too, right? But it's very helpful to the public to actually see these results and sort of hopefully get a bit of a nudge from seeing this that, oh yes, I need to do more, I need to start sooner and get planning.

Jackie: So Craig, it's great that you've done all of this research, we've released it, lots of people are hearing about it. Do you think if you did the same research in five years' time that we'd get the same type of responses?

Craig: I really hope so. And I do think that there is a bit of a movement out there to get more holistic in how we view and plan for retirement. I'm seeing it out there in our research amongst financial advisors. The financial advisors, even just in that financial piece, are now looking at not just savings, but, you know, the estate planning aspect, inheritance, accommodations, that sort of planning for retirement. And then, you know, we see it in the survey that just people are very much on board with thinking about this more holistically and thinking about physical health, mental health and social connectivity, not just finances going forward. So I would like to think that it will continue and I think it will, but, you know, I think it's not going to happen on its own. Everybody has to keep pushing that boulder up the hill and, you know, OMERS is doing it, but, you know, other institutions have to do this as well.

Jackie: Right. Okay. So maybe we'll talk to you again in five years.

Craig: Yeah. Sounds good.

Jackie: Well, Craig, thank you very much. Thanks for being on The Pension Blueprint.

Craig: Oh, my pleasure. It was great to be here. Thank you.