The Pension Blueprint podcast video transcript 

Episode 5: Why women retire with less, and how to change that

Celine Chiovitti (VO): Hello everyone, and welcome back to The Pension Blueprint. I'm your host, Celine Chiovitti. In a previous episode this season, we dug into the pension gender gap with Kadie Philp. And this week, I'm excited to pick up where that conversation left off. I sat down with two personal finance experts, Jessica Moorhouse, personal financial educator, author and host of The More Money Podcast, and Kristine Beese, CEO of Untangle Money, and a leading voice on women's financial wellness.

In this episode, Jessica and Kristine offer women of all ages tangible tips and tactics for personal savings, investing, and creating your dream retirement lifestyle. But their advice is great for everyone, and you don't want to miss this. Let's dive in.

Celine: So, hello Kristine and Jessica, welcome to The Pension Blueprint.

Jessica: Hello, thanks for having us.

Celine: Likewise. Thank you for being here. I am so excited to have two powerhouse women and influencers who are really changing the game when it comes to talking about money, and talking about money with women. Kristine, I know that you've done and really dug into a lot of the research. We just recently worked with Polara on a report, really trying to understand more retirement perceptions.

Kristine: Yes. And across, you know, retired Ontarians and actively working Ontarians, there were a few ahas. But one of them really, that spoke to me and specifically, I think will speak to the both of you, is that across all quadrants, women felt less happy in their retirement, felt more financially concerned as they got older, but yet were less likely to start planning at a young age. So I'd love to just understand the research that's gone into women's confidence around—

Yeah, so there was a... EQ Bank had an arm called Stance, and they looked at women's confidence around money. And so men and women in Canada have pretty comparable financial literacy. Both need help, but women have—it's not as disparate as you would think. They're pretty similar. Women just don't believe that they know as much, and so their confidence is really different. But the other thing they found is that when women and men have the same level of confidence, they invest in the same way. And so one of the neat things is that if we can move women's confidence up, then they're going to make— the research implies that they're going to make—financial decisions that are going to help them with that anxiety, with that happiness around their situation, around money, because women have a lot less money that they get over their lifetimes. It's around $1 million US, at least that's what Bank of America published a few years ago. And so with that lack of money, you need to start earlier. And if you're not confident and you're not investing your money to get it to work hard enough for you, you're going to really feel like you're behind and you are going to retire with a lot less ability to take care of yourself financially. So the research is very important to look at, to help us understand what we need to change, and confidence seems to be the key to that change—a piece of it. It's complicated, but, yeah, definitely.

Jessica: Absolutely, and I guess a big element is figuring out why do women have this lack of confidence? I mean, to me, I think as women, we probably have an idea of where that stems from. I mean, part of something I wrote about in my book is about imposter syndrome. And really getting to the root of, like, okay, why do so many people, especially women specifically, have imposter syndrome? It is largely due to being in spaces that make us feel inadequate when we actually do have all the tools and the information. But there's maybe people, or it's just the overall environment, that makes us maybe second guess what we know. But you also know the data that women are actually incredible with money. We're actually really good investors. Probably better than men, actually. We're actually less emotional.

Kristine: Yes.

Jessica: You know, we make some really good choices when we do have that confidence. But the problem is we lack confidence. And I was, you know, a prime example in my 20s. I had zero confidence. I was investing probably too conservatively because, again, that made me feel safe. And I never felt really welcomed in spaces that did talk about investing without being concerned about, you know, being questioned about my knowledge. Because, yeah, you're having conversations so you can gain knowledge. Yeah, I don't know everything, that's why I'm asking questions.

Kristine: Yes.

Jessica: But you would sometimes have conversations and then you would be posed with, "Oh, you don't know that?" And then what does that do? It makes you retreat and you don't want to ask questions anymore, and then you don't want to be... Then you're taking yourself out. And you're like, "You know what, maybe I'll learn about investing next year when I'm more confident." But you're not going to be in a different space. When there's also that though, all the tropes, right?

Don't do your nails, don't buy the coffee.

Kristine: And they're all garbage.

You're like, "That's not why I can't afford to invest."

Celine: Yes, yes.

And so I think, it's layered, right?

Yeah, it's really layered.

It's cyclical and it takes the confidence out of you instead of doing sort of the opposite.

Kristine: And what that means is that some of the guidance and best practices don't actually work for women. And so, I can give an example. Women—people are often told to reserve their RRSP room for when they have their highest earning years, and it's traditionally said 55, in and around there, so 50 to 60 basically, and to use your TFSA room first. But if you look at the earning curves for women and men, women's income actually plateaus in around 40. So they should be using their RRSP room at 40 and beyond and not reserving it, so the guidance is actually harmful to women. Similarly, traditional financial plans are designed to have that extra million dollars of income coming in throughout the course of your life. And women don't have that. And so the guidance—you might be trying to do everything according to plan, but because your income isn't continuing to go up, we hit that glass ceiling. Then the plan is saying, "Hey, you need to put more money in." And you're like, "There's no money," right? "I don't have more money." And so there is the added complication that the guidance isn't designed for us.

Celine: I love, you know, the talk of, like, pull it out once, you know, have a plan, pull it out once a year. And you know, from a pension perspective, obviously if you're in your 20s or 30s, that's not top of mind. But we need to get there. And I think my question to you is, like, people call in, you talk to people all the time. My understanding of what I'm hearing is that younger people specifically, and women as well, are feeling very overwhelmed, right? And so, and it's a difficult world. And so I think, you know, cost of living really high, housing affordability, student loans, like all of the things. And so if, like, I want to break it down to, what would you—what advice would you give? Like, does that change the context of what should we be thinking about? I want to build some financial wealth. I don't have a lot of income. I don't have a lot of money at the end of the month. What should I be focused on?

Jessica: Oh yeah. Yeah, that's tough. And, yeah, it's interesting hearing kind of the struggles depending on what kind of age group you're in. For sure, I'm a millennial, so largely what I'm hearing from that group is how to balance having a family or getting married and then doing the things that you feel like you should do at that same time, such as getting your own home and taking care and just laying that foundation and getting things sorted so you can settle down. But then for younger people in their 20s or, you know, still in school, they, I think, are much more aware of some of the kind of financial things that they will have to deal with. Because, again, it's more open. They see it online and there's a lot more anxiety and feelings of kind of hopelessness. There's a lot of data to show that there's, you know, there's kind of a hopeless-feeling generation. Because they know, oh, you know, I, as a millennial, I thought it was going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to ever own a house because of how crazy we saw the prices go up over the past decade. And younger people are like, I probably can't even afford a condo. I probably will never be able to own anything. I'll probably be renting forever. And there's still a stigma around renting, which is crazy. And so there's that layer, and they're like, how am I even going to afford groceries? And a lot more people are having to stay at home with their parents a lot longer. And there's a lot of feelings about that. So I think there's that.

And then when you again compare it to, we are very online and young people especially kind of grew up online. And so they are very used to constantly comparing themselves, their life, to perfection—whatever's represented online from all these very wealthy influencers that, back in my day, you'd see that on TV, but you would know it was like fiction or you're like, oh, well that's not in my kind of bubble, so I don't care. But now you see it every day and you're like, Well, I should be able to also afford to go to these fancy trips and these concerts and buy these designer goods, because that's what's in front of me. So I have all these things.

Celine: So true. How do I balance it all?

Jessica: And so part of that is when you feel that overwhelm, you don't do anything. You push it—I'll figure that out next year. Or, you know, what's the point of trying to save for my future when, you know, the world seems like it's not probably going to last that much longer, so I'm just going to have fun while I'm still on this planet.

And so that's a lot of the conversations I've been having lately—trying to encourage young people to feel your feelings, they're valid. But likely the world is still going to exist by the time you're in your 60s, 70s, and 80s. So we need to do something to prepare for it.

And it's okay to start small. I think a lot of people think they need to start big or that they need to have a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars by 30. And I'm like, 30? You're still at the beginning of your career, right? I was—I mean, I changed careers at 30 and felt like I was restarting my life. And so there's so much pressure to do everything all at once. And so when you're that overwhelmed, you don't do anything.

The biggest advice I could give is just start to do one thing. Whether that's make that spending plan, that budget, or, oh, you've got some credit card debt—let's make that the priority this year. Just do one thing so you can accomplish it. And then, oh, oh, I can do that. Maybe I am more capable. And then you'll build that confidence, like we were talking about earlier, that you can keep on going.

And that's honestly what I learned in my 20s when I was kind of learning about personal finance. The best advice is start small, and be consistent and keep going.

Celine: Yeah. I think it's such great advice.

Kristine: I do want to also add that for women, it is really amazing and very beneficial if they can be part of a defined benefit pension. And I think, anecdotally, most women that I've worked with do not understand the value of the pension. But because we tend to live longer, having a defined benefit is—it is just so anxiety reducing, and you just know that there's going to be money there.

Celine: We're trying to have more of a conversation around what it actually means. Because I'm a great example. I started my career back when I was in my early 20s, worked for a municipality, didn't think anything of the pension, was enrolled in this plan, and quite frankly, it was like money coming out of my pay. I'm like, I don't do this. Like, why am I doing this?

Well, fast forward to today, I'm in my early 50s. I don't know how that happens so quickly. But it happens quickly.

Kristine: It does.

Celine: And now I do have peace of mind in knowing that, you know, when I retire, I've been able to save. But I also have this thing called a pension that's going to allow me to live my life in a certain way. And I think to your point earlier, Jessica, part of it is it feels so overwhelming and so, you know, I'm not going to think about—I don't need to think about 30 years from now, I need to think about the next year. So how do we do it all?
Now, do you hear—do people think—are young women thinking about pensions or thinking about their future in that way?

Jessica: I mean, definitely. I mean, there are, you know—and pensions are not as they used to be. I mean, they used to be everywhere. Every company had a pension. And so they are kind of like a very exciting thing when you hear that your job has a pension, especially a defined benefit pension, which is so amazing. And they can be kind of rare depending on what industry you work in.

But I think, yeah, a lot of people—either they don't know the value or they really do, because maybe they learn from their parents, who were maybe in a similar line of work and stuff like that. So, you know, it depends on who I talk to. But I've always been the person—I've never been lucky enough to have a pension in any work. I used to have a group RRSP at a few different places, but I did know the value of that. And those plans were voluntary, so you weren't automatically enrolled in that. And because of that, unfortunately so many people did not opt in, which means they were leaving money on the table, because if you participated, your employer would match. That is money you only got if you participated.

Free money.

It was part of your compensation that you are not taking, you're not getting, if you don't opt in. And I would be that annoying person at every place. I would always look into that information and opt in. And then I would ask, you know, people I work with, are you participating? Because also, you know, I'm a finance blogger, so I was another person who was, you know, talking about money openly. And so many people didn't. I'm like, why aren't you? Do you not understand what you might be giving up?

And I think part of it is maybe the confusion on how these plans work. People are worried of, but what if I leave? Does that mean I have to leave the money here? And same with people with pensions. That's a common question I get: what if I want to change careers or move employers? Am I stuck? Do I have to leave them? And so they think, well, I don't know if I want to even participate because it might lock me into this job.

I'm like, well that's actually not how it works. And so part of it, I think, is just the lack of knowledge about how they work and how they are kind of a rarity. And so you should take advantage if they come into your life.

We need to simplify how we talk about it.

For sure.

Kristine: The research shows that most people are taking advantage of it. So, or sorry, more than 50%. It's not.

Celine: Okay. That's pretty good.

Kristine: However, $3 billion are left on the table every year. It is a huge part of your compensation. So I do want to say that slightly more people than not are taking advantage. And I haven't been able to find a gender breakdown. So I wonder if it's more men than women, because traditionally men are the ones who talk about money, who maybe had fathers who had employment, who had pensions. I don't know. But I think the biggest innovation that Canadian companies could do to improve women's financial lives is to make it opt out.

Auto enrollment.

Jessica: Yes, a hundred percent.

Kristine: And I think that would unbelievably, radically change the futures for women specifically. And men, actually—I think, again, $3 billion.

Jessica: Just reminded me of this story. I was, you know, talking to my grandma, she's turning 90 this year.

Celine: Congratulations.

Jessica: Yeah, yeah. But she's originally from Scotland. She was a teacher and then she immigrated here, I guess in the 60s, and then she became a teacher here. And so because of that, she has two teacher pensions—one from Scotland, one from here. And in her 90s she's like, you don't understand how life changing having these pensions, that again, she was auto enrolled, they were automatic, have changed her life and have allowed her to have more kind of financial freedom, or just be able to survive this long. And so sometimes you have to hear from someone who's in it at that age, who's been able to benefit from a pension so much, to really understand the impact.

Kristine: No, no, I was just going to—I wanted to applaud OMERS because there are two innovations that really do improve women's pension and financial livelihood. And that is being able to contribute if you're a part-time employee, because women do spend more time in part-time work, and then also the ability to purchase back service. So I think those are two other innovations that I would like to see becoming commonplace in the market, actually.

Celine: And we've got work to do. I mean, the reality is, this year this is an issue that we've really tried to tackle head on. We opened up our plan to part-time, to non full-time employees back in 2023. And honestly, we didn't know what it would look like. We didn't know what the demographic was out there. We didn't know if there'd be take up. We've been able to enroll 53,000 women since 2023.

Kristine: Amazing.

Celine: Working non full-time roles where they wouldn't have had access in the past. Jessica, in your book Everything But Money, you talk about the lack of diversity in financial systems that continues to exist today. Is that a problem?

Jessica: It's a big problem. So when I was doing research for this book and wanted to explore the lack of diversity in financial services specifically, I found a report that said, you know, VPs, senior VPs, C-suite levels are between 80 to 90% White people. And so that is not very diverse. And those are the change makers. Those are the roles that really influence the whole financial system. And so if we're not seeing a reflection of the real world that we're in, which is very diverse, then how are we going to see more policies and systems that really reflect the people that need, you know, different advice?

And so it was interesting kind of doing this research and seeing that there is still, unfortunately, a lot of discrimination. Whether you're a customer going to seek financial advice—whether it's at a bank or a firm—or you work in the financial services industry, because you know, you may get to a certain level and then you just can't move ahead because, well, if 80 to 90% of the board or the people at that level are White, they may unfortunately have some unconscious bias or some more conscious bias, so you can't move forward. And then how are you going to be a change maker? Because you can't get to that level.

And so it's so important for us to really push for more diversity and inclusion at all levels, whether they're at the start, you know, those ground-level employees that are dealing with people one-on-one every single day, to the top people. Because we do need to have more fairness and equality and equitability. And that's only going to happen with people who've maybe been on the other side of it, that have been discriminated against.

I know we've had probably personal experiences being women, you know, going to see an advisor and, you know, I still—it's burned in my brain. I was in my 20s and went with my husband to see an advisor and the whole time the advisor was talking to my husband because he was a man. Bless my husband, he did not know; he would always look to me to be like, I don't know, Jess, what do you think?

Kristine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica: And I'm like, this is wild because I did also preface, oh, I actually do some blogging and I do know about this stuff. And it was wild that I was still discriminated against, and it made me kind of really angry and also kind of motivated me to get some of the same certificates myself. But, you know, we do need to see more people in these roles that reflect who we are, because they will know our experience and then really understand how we can move forward and make changes for the future.

Yeah.

Kristine: So two stats that support that: Merrill Lynch has done a lot of research on the gendered impact of your advisor. And if you're a woman and you have a woman advisor, the female advisor is more likely to focus on overall risk and not just near-term risk. So moving that conversation around risk now versus risk long-term, and that it produces better results, better outcomes.

And then the World Economic Forum says that if a woman uses a financial plan designed for a man, it will fail them, and that retirement providers should be looking at different strategies—potentially riskier strategies for women—to make sure that they are mitigating that gap. And so I think, one, without the data, it's very hard, and that's just on a gender-diverse lens, but then there's definitely more as you mentioned. But if we don't have that data and we don't have the champion that says, hey, this is actually really important—because I think it's unintentional that they don't have this data. I think if we hadn't been looking for it, it's very hard to find. I never learned any of it in my professional literacy and education. And so, you know, we need those people at the top to be the champions so that they can make the change, and they need to be diverse so that we're serving and giving the right guidance for everyone.

Celine: Yeah, I think that's how you make systems more accessible. You surround yourself with diverse views. They're then bringing the issues—well, what about this? I think to your point, probably unintentionally, I never even thought of that because that's not my lived experience. And so having that perspective actually brings you to a more accessible outcome. Lovely.

So I want to go back to some actual tangible tips. If I am a young woman just starting out, if I am a pension plan, what can we do differently? If I'm an employee, how do we start to make some systemic change in this space?

Kristine: Yeah, so three things that women—so actually, let me step back. Two things that women do incredibly well, which you, Jessica, alluded to, is that we are great at investing, both on the professional and on the retail level. So that means that with the same amount of risks, with the same sort of financial bouquet, we get better returns than our male counterparts. And I'm not saying that to disparage men, but I want to push back against this idea that women are bad with money.

We're also great at saving money. We save more as a percentage of our salary. We have less because we earn less and we put less of it to work for us.

The three things that we can do differently are: start earlier—so start with your first job; put more money to work—we see women tend to sit on a lot of cash. Part of that is, again, this guidance that we get to sit on so much emergency savings, which is actually flawed. They've done research on it, and we need to sit on a lot less than we think. We need access to money; it needs to be working for us while it waits until we need it.

And thirdly, we need that financial bouquet to be working harder for us. So a professional investor and a pension will have—so you think of ClearPath, Fidelity has these ClearPath portfolios. Until you're 20 years away from retirement, they will put you in a financial bouquet that's 92% stock. So it's not untoward and it's not gambling. It's this idea of the better time horizon-based investing.

And so those are the three things: start earlier, get more of your money working for you, and get it working harder for you.

And then I also think that it's easier to do that if you know where you are, where you're trying to get to, and how you're going to do that. And I can share an anecdote of why that's important. I like to use the marathon example. This may be bad because I'm not a runner, but let's say I want to get into running and I decide I'm going to run a marathon in a year. I have set aside three hours a week that I want to do this. I read a book from an expert that says really you need five hours a week if you want to be able to do this in one year. I now have two choices. Neither is wrong. I can either find two more hours that I can put aside, or I can decide a 10K fits better with what I'm going to do all year. So knowing where you are, where you're trying to get to, and how you're going to get there—and if that "how" fits in what you want for yourself and the people you love in your lifestyle—and sort of working around that. So those would be some of my top tips.

And opt into your...

Well, it just reminded me about how the one thing often, too, we think about—oh, what's a great financial tip? And we think about, okay, here's... The best thing really is about goal setting. So it's kind of outside of money—really defining what do you want and what's realistic.

Jessica: So what you were talking about really is about setting a realistic goal. If a marathon is your goal and then you're like, that actually is unrealistic for me to accomplish with the time I have and the resources, a 10K is more reasonable. Then do the 10K. Because isn't that better to accomplish a goal and feel really good about it? And then you have so much more knowledge that, oh, maybe I can do a marathon next.

Celine: And it's sustainable.

And sustainable.

Right.

Jessica: Because otherwise you start, it fails, and now you have this added...

Kristine: Now you feel like a failure. And then you retreat and then you don't want to try again.

Jessica: Instead of recognizing that, or not even recognizing but having this idea that it's a practice, and we are always doing the best we can with the information we have on hand. I think that's important for people to know. I think we just get caught up, especially women, just because of society and expectations of this idea of perfection. And also maybe this idea that we have to play catch up because maybe we look to our mothers or grandmothers who weren't able to participate and didn't have that kind of financial access and freedom. And so we feel like we have to do double time to really exceed everything, and that is really difficult to do in one generation. So we need to give ourselves some grace. Yes, the stats don't lie—we earn less, we live longer. So it is going to be difficult, and there is still so much discrimination and bias that's invisible in all workplaces that may make it difficult for us to get to a certain level compared to a coworker because of these things. And we can't ignore those. So we need to really just be realistic with what's in front of me and what can I do, and then just try your best. Because if you are trying to reach perfection, you're always going to be disappointed.

Jessica: And I say that as someone who is a perfectionist and I'm always disappointed, but then I look at what I've accomplished—and maybe it was 70% or 60% of what I wanted to—I'm like, but if I didn't set that goal I would've done 0%. So what's better? But I also am getting better at doing realistic goals, because they do make you feel better when you hit a hundred or ninety percent or something like that.

Celine: That's great advice. I often get asked career advice, and it's similar to that. You see young women who want it all, and it's like, it's a long game. And so sometimes you have to make choices and those choices make sense at the time. Don't beat yourself up for them, but stay in the game. Continue—like, what is the next best thing? And you know, if you have a family and you're with your kids, be with your kids, enjoy every moment. When you're at work, be at work. Try to be as present and continue to do your thing. But it is about the long game. How do you play the long game?

Jessica: And no one has it all figured out. No one is doing it all. I've yet to meet someone who's doing it all without making some sort of sacrifice. And again, too, I think we get too caught up in this image of, well, that person looks like they have it all. Well, that's just an image. We have no idea what's behind it and what's going on. So you really do need to define success—career, personal, financial—for yourself. Because otherwise you're always going to be chasing this ideal that doesn't actually exist.

Celine: You're in competition with yourself, not that other person. It's how can you become your best self.

Exactly.

Kristine: And I think that one misconception is that for women it's the maternity leave or the childcare that pulls us out of the workforce. But the other major life event that happens that pulls us out of the workforce is taking care of elders—be it our own or our partner's. Even for women who choose not to have children, which is a perfectly valid choice, they may also face elder care responsibilities. It may make more economic sense as a family to do that because they often are the lower income earner. And so that also takes you out of the workforce, which often is a part-time position. So it's great that they can contribute part-time, but most times you aren't able to contribute to anything when you're part-time. That impacts your CPP, it impacts your corporate pension if you have one.
So I think some women feel that if they don't have children that'll solve a lot of their financial obstacles. And I think that's great and it is true in the beginning, but I also think that there are other obstacles—other obstacles that we don't talk about enough.

Celine: We need to, you know, again—I go back to, we need to have the conversations. And there's so many, you know, I think we're improving so much because we are having the dialogue. But even the sandwich generation—there's a stat out of the States that says like 50% of adult children are still living with their parents because they need help. And so when you think of many people in the sandwich generation, they are taking care of their adult children while also taking care of their elders. So there's a lot of stress and pressure around that, and that's a different reality altogether.

Kristine: Yeah.

Celine: So I want to just end off by talking about where we can go for continued conversation, for information, for literacy—like some tools for our women, for our listeners. I know we've got Everything But Money. I'm taking it on vacation with me next week, by the way. I'm very excited.

Jessica: A nice beach read.

Celine: Nice beach read. I've got like a trashy novel and—

Jessica: Okay. Good.

Celine: Feeding my mind and my soul at the same time. We've already talked about lots of free information online, podcasts—do your due diligence.

We've got information, of course, on the OMERS website when it comes to our members and trying to sort of build out calculators and having that plan. Where else would you recommend people can go to?

Kristine: So I love podcasts. I tend to listen to them while I'm doing the dishes or doing chores that I want to mentally escape from. And I really like that. I really like when it's women who are talking because there's—

Celine: The same experience.

Kristine: Yes. And again, there's not that judgment. And I'm tired of this trope that if we tell women to stop doing their nails, they'll be able to afford a retirement. I just hate that, and I haven't heard very many women give that guidance. I think it's critical that we find joy from our money, and that's largely under-recognized. There's actually research that shows this.

So I think if you like reading books, especially by Canadians—

Jessica: Audio books too.

But yes, that's how I read books now.

Kristine: But Canadian financial literacy professionals—I really think that's hard to find. So Canadian women like yourself is a wonderful place to go. I'll plug the Untangle MINI, which is a financial plan, a budget, and retirement plan together. And what we do is we show you 12 different options, so just like you'd go to an optometrist and they're like, is this one better or is this one better? And both are great options.

Celine: And so Untangle Money, I can find that on the website? Like online?

Jessica: Yeah, it's called the MINI and you can either do the self-serve or the full serve. And so that's where I'd start. So podcasts and reading. I started by reading a ton of things. Same. And again, sometimes that's where you're going to get some of the meat of what you're looking for.

Deeper dive.

They can do a deeper dive.

Kristine: They can present research, they can really give you kind of a full picture compared to, say, clips on social media, which can get you interested but may not be able to go very deep.

Jessica: What I was actually thinking is, yeah, there's so many great resources—podcasts, YouTube videos, downloadables—there are so many great things out there that are so much more accessible now than they used to be. So take advantage.

But I would say one thing that can really maybe do a shift is maybe taking a podcast or a book and getting some of your women friends together to discuss it. Start having those conversations, or something like that. And having it, you know, get rid of the idea, oh, it's going to be awkward talking about money because you're talking about a thing. So it's not really about—you're not talking about your numbers if you're uncomfortable with that. You can talk about generalities, and then as the conversation starts to flow, maybe you'll build the trust so you can kind of share.

And honestly, I'm part of a few book clubs, and because people know that I am like the money gal, we naturally start talking about it. And it's been great, because then I allow them to ask questions and then they feel more comfortable, and then they start talking to some of their other friends and other groups about it. And I'd say really, if you feel like, I really want to learn this, you be the leader in this and you start that conversation. Because honestly, over the decade plus that I've been doing this, people are waiting to have that conversation—they just don't want to start it because they're scared of what people will think of them. So if you're the one to start it, they'll most likely be, oh great, I'm so glad someone started this because I want to know too.

Kristine: Nine out of 10 women in Canada want help with their money. So you are not alone.

Jessica: Yeah. I have yet to meet any person who's like, oh no, I've got everything figured out. I'm good. Don't need to start this conversation. Almost every time, they're like, oh actually, I do have something to add or I'd love to know this, can we talk about it?

And I just want to say for the deeper dive, that totally aligns with why women are better at investing—because we actually do the research. We do our due diligence.

We really do.

Kristine: And we actually found on our blog that women wanted more than a Google search. So they wanted a deeper dive. So I think starting with something that feels accessible and then knowing that there's an ability to go deeper. Different people will find different things. Like, either you like the big picture or you like really the details. And there's a spectrum of different people. So finding someone that resonates with you, and knowing that just because someone doesn't resonate, it's not wrong.

Yeah. So totally.

Celine: My hat's off to both of you. I now get it. I know where you are and the influencers that you are. Such a privilege to have this conversation. Thank you so much.

I've been ending each of these with just some quick fun questions to get to know you a bit more personally. Call them the fast five.

Okay.

I'm going to share them between you, so if you're down for it.

Jessica, what's the first thing you do in the morning?

Jessica: This is going to sound bad. Scroll my phone.

Why is that bad?

Celine: Got to be honest.

Jessica: I wish I had something—oh, I get up and do yoga. No, I go and look at my email on my phone.
So that's the honest truth.

Celine: Last thing you do at night, Kristine.

Jessica: I put an audio book on to fall asleep, because otherwise I find I ruminate, so it takes me out— I'm very much into reading before bed, it's great.

Kristine: Yes.

Jessica: Yes. I find if I close my eyes it's easy. Otherwise I keep reading.

Oh that's true, that also was a problem.

Yeah, it's nice to go somewhere else.

Celine: I used to be able to, like, I would be the person that was up all night reading my favorite novel. Now I get through three pages and... That's brilliant though because it's a put-yourself-to-sleep mechanism. Okay Jessica, it's Sunday morning, you have all day, no commitments. What are you doing? How are you spending your day?

Jessica: You know what, every Sunday morning I do actually do a workout, which is something I never want to do before the workout and absolutely love after the workout. And then, yeah, I just like to make a good breakfast. Maybe tidy the house, laundry is for Sundays, do a little gardening. That's usually what I do on a Sunday.

Celine: What's your go-to breakfast?

Jessica: You know what, eggs every morning. I love scrambled eggs, maybe some fried tomatoes, maybe some spinach.

Celine: Lovely. Lovely.

Jessica: I probably would pancakes like with—

Oh yeah, that too.

Yeah, I like that one.

Celine: Kristine, favorite spot to eat. And what's your order?

Kristine: Oh, like a restaurant?

Celine: Yeah.

Kristine: I love a restaurant near us called Knuckle Sandwich. And I get the buffalo chicken burger and it's just, it's really spicy. They have dill, which is a combination I don't see often, and I just absolutely love it.

Celine: Love, love, love.

Kristine: Which is not very fancy.

Celine: No, it's perfect. Perfect. Okay, the same question to both of you. Jessica, you first. You've got 48 hours to travel anywhere you want, not including travel time. Where are you going? Who are you taking with you and what are you doing?

Jessica: Ooh, it probably would be Italy, because it's a bucket list trip. Taking my husband and I'm just—I'm there to eat and drink everything. And see everything. So I want to be like eating a cannoli and drinking an espresso or a glass of wine while looking at—

Celine: And it's going to be judgment free, we're not going to be counting calories.

Jessica: I don't think anyone judges that.

Kristine: And then for me it would be going with my family to England. So just letting my kids experience that. And my youngest son is obsessed with Big Ben. So he has Big Ben socks and a Big Ben puzzle and a Big Ben statue.

Big Ben everything.

Celine: So cute. How old is he?

Kristine: He's seven. And then the older two were actually born there. So they really want to see where they were born. And so it'd be nice to go back and look at our flat and just be able to experience that with them, because they're old enough now. The other older two are nine and eleven, and they are asking a lot of questions, and when do we get to go back.

Celine: And they can do the long plane ride and not—

Kristine: Yes. Yes. They love airplanes.

Celine: Oh great.

Absolutely.
Kristine: They love anything that moves—freight trucks, cranes, fire engines, everything.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Celine: Thank you both. I appreciate you both.

Kristine: Thank you.

Jessica: Thank you.

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