The Pension Blueprint podcast video transcript

Episode 7: Improving retirement for women

Jackie DeSouza: Hi, everyone, this is Jackie DeSouza, one of your two co-hosts on The Pension Blueprint. Welcome to another episode of our second season. This time around, I'm pleased to say that my co-host, Celine Chiovitti, OMERS Chief Pension Officer, will be our guest today. We'll also be joined by Nancy Nazer, who is our Chief Human Resources Officer at OMERS. Listeners of our show have gotten to know Celine pretty well by now, and you'll get to know Nancy too. She was recently named one of the Best 50 Executives in Canada and has also led OMERS to achieve numerous awards, including Best Workplaces in Canada, Canada's Most Admired Corporate Cultures, and Greater Toronto's Top 100 Employers. I'm proud to share the microphone with these two extremely talented and accomplished women in this episode. They will discuss how the working environment has improved for women over the years, while also discussing the inequalities that women continue to face in the labour market and how those inequalities continue to impact women decades later in retirement, an issue now known as the gender pension gap. So we're asking some big questions this time around, why is the gap there and what can be done about it? I'm grateful to have Celine and Nancy here with me to help unpack it all.  

Nancy and Celine, thank you so much for joining us today on The Pension Blueprint. So of course, today, we're going to talk about the gender pension gap, and of course, we come at it from our own perspectives and our own experiences. We're all mothers, we're all at a certain level in our careers right now, but we want this episode really to be impactful for all women, those who are starting out in their careers, those who don't plan to have children. It's Pride Month when we're recording this, those who are LGBTQ+ and from all walks of life, and we want this to be inclusive and information from everyone. So on that note, Celine, you were recently named as Chief Pension Officer at OMERS. We're all very proud of you and 

Celine Chiovitti: Thank you, Jackie.  

Jackie DeSouza: Totally, and I'm not just saying that because I'm on your team. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got there and what are some of the challenges you faced along the way?  

Celine Chiovitti: I first of all feel so privileged and delighted to be Chief Pension Officer for OMERS, you know that, and so, but if I look at my career span, I started off in public service. I spent a lot of time, I would say, doing a lot of working through the ladder. And so I did a lot of labor negotiations. With my own perspective at the time, I got married relatively young, I had children relatively young. And so my experiences as a young working mother was one where there wasn't a lot of flexibility, right? You were sort of expected to be there when you were in negotiations. You'd be in a hotel 24/7 and you'd see your kids when you could see them. That was the lived experience that I had, but I was always very, very focused on service and that sort of connection to a bigger purpose. And so when I came over to OMERS back in 2013, it really was about how can I be of service to a broader level of members with over 600,000 members? But I think the principles of working hard, building relationships, really being purpose-driven work has brought me to where I am today. And I don't take it for granted that I have 400 employees in my business, and so I do really try to bring my experiences to the workplace each and every day to say how can I show up in a different way? How can I show up in a more inclusive way? How can I show up in a more flexible way in leading a team, and that's not always easy. We have the, the conversations at our Executive Leadership Team as well, but I think that is the expectation.  

Jackie DeSouza: Thank you. That's inspiring. And Nancy, of course, you're the Chief Human Resources Officer for OMERS. So can you tell us a little bit about your story? You're an immigrant woman, as am I. You came to Canada, I know you have two children, who are older now. How did you manage to sort of breakthrough that glass ceiling and get to where you are today?  

Nancy Nazer: Well, I will just say, I think we all have our own stories and our own experiences, and it's really important to always go back and reflect in terms of how have some of those earlier years experiences led to where you are today. And for me, before the age of 10, I lived in three different continents, so when you think about that, it's just a lot of change. Moving to Canada, it was immigrating to Canada because where I was born, I grew up and I was born in Iran and there wasn't safety there, it was during the revolution. So we made the decision based on safety to leave the country, and it was my parents' decision at the time. But by doing that, you start over again and again in your life, and as a young child being in a new environment, in new cultures, new languages, you just build a little bit of grit, resiliency, and this almost my superpower is like, don't give up. Just don't give up. And you get used to that change, and in my career, it has served me well in some ways because I'm okay with change and I'm okay to really drive what I believe in, and I've taken some risk in my career as well because of that. So I think, again, it's important. Everyone's story is different. We can't all strive for the same things, have the same dreams, but I just think, again, it's just what are the experiences people had? And I think as an immigrant, no longer a new immigrant, but as an immigrant, I will never forget my early years and what that's taught me in terms of that resiliency and grit.  

Jackie DeSouza: Well, that's a powerful story that I think many people can relate to. So, Celine, you've spoken publicly about the gender pension gap. I know you've also talked about a 2021 Mercer Pension Report that talks about this gap. Can you explain what the gap is and what are the findings of the report that resonate with you?  

Celine Chiovitti: Sure, this is a report that goes across the globe and essentially ranks retirement systems of all countries. I think there's 41 different countries included in the report. And they ranked their retirement systems, and back in 2021, they featured a special chapter that looked at the issue between the gaps in income that women receive versus their male counterparts in their retirement. And so the real aha moment for me was the fact that across all 41 countries, there was a gap. And so there was an identified gap. Some had more than others. Canada is actually doing better than many other countries because our CPP pension actually has an offset for women who take pregnancy parental leave, some where they're earning less income. But overall, they found that there was this gap and they basically classified the issue around three sort of fundamental themes. The first one being employment, and so are there employment barriers for ways people work? And so are women predominantly more in part-time jobs, things like that. The second was around pension plan design. And so was the design, are there features of the design that negatively or inappropriately impact women? And then the third would be sort of community standards. So is it difficult for women to get childcare in those specific countries? And so those were the three areas that were really called out, but it really spoke to me when you looked at it about the fact that we, as leaders in this industry, need to take more steps to try and lessen that gap.  

Jackie DeSouza: Yeah, thanks, Celine. That's really enlightening. And Nancy, what have you seen change over the years in the workplace to better support women?  

Nancy Nazer: I think the workplace is changing for the positive. I really do. And when I think about myself when I started my career, and this is back in the 1990s and I was in graduate school and I will never forget this moment, where I just had final years, just got married, came back from my honeymoon, and I went into a meeting with my advisors and a group of colleagues, and I remember one of my advisors saying to me the hope for me was that I was on birth control, so that-  

Celine Chiovitti: Yikes. 

Jackie DeSouza: Wow.  

Nancy Nazer: Because my career could not afford me to have children. And it is a bit of that yikes, and it was a shocking moment in that time when I'm in my 20s and wondering why was I called out? Then fast forward a few years later, I start my first job and I'm being considered for this amazing opportunity and I meet with this hiring manager who knew me, had worked with me, and he said to me that he would make the exception for me because I was of childbearing age to join his team. So these are moments-  

Celine Chiovitti: It's hard to even believe. 

Nancy Nazer: These are moments that you go, "I can't believe that this happened." And so what that does to someone who is starting their career, aspiring in their career, and just wants to grow and have that level of acceptance, you go, "Maybe it's not okay to have a child." So when I was pregnant with my first child, Julian, who's now 21, I remember I wasn't comfortable sharing this incredible news with my colleagues. And when I went on maternity leave those days, I didn't take the allocated time because I thought it is going to have infringements on my career, but as an individual, as someone who's experienced some of these moments of truth, I want to touch people in terms of how can I help others who are in these situations? And we can all, again, even if it's one person at a time, by those moments, you can just impact their decisions to keep women in the workforce because we know longer term the coming in and out for having children or having the responsibilities of being in that sandwich generation impact your earnings and your income upon retirement.  

Celine Chiovitti: When I was raising children and working, the expectation was you showed up in the workplace at a certain time. You left when the work was over. The flexibility wasn't built there. And so I think you've got evolved organizations and leaders who are setting the path for people, but I also think the generation expectations are changing, which is great. It's part of evolution and we just need to keep the conversations going.  

Nancy Nazer: Exactly, and we hear so much, Celine, that it is about bringing your whole self to work. and there were days that not only did you have to show up at certain times and leave at certain times, you couldn't talk about having a family.  

Jackie DeSouza: Right. 

Nancy Nazer: I had leaders who didn't want to hear that I had a family or didn't even know I had children. And I always bring it into the conversation. I talk about my children all the time, it agitates them and they tell me like, "Mom, what do you talk about us so much?" But they're part of my life and I spend so much time at work and if I can't bring my whole self, talk about my family, talk about my experiences, the good and the bad, then I'm not really going to love what I do.  

Jackie DeSouza: So Celine, now as the Chief, we're going to switch gears a little bit. As OMERS Chief Pension Officer, what do you think are the barriers today that are disproportionately affecting women sort of on the pension side?  

Celine Chiovitti: So I think the biggest barrier continues to be that women do take more time away from the workplace than their male counterparts, right? Traditionally, we take more time away to have children, to care for families, and that impacts our pension. It impacts our pension more than probably any other thing. When you start to look at, especially with an OMERS, we’re a defined benefit pension plan. Essentially, when we go to calculate your pension, it depends on your credited service and your earnings. And so those gaps in service start to add up, and I just don't think we're doing enough to educate in that area, and so what tends to happen, again, I referenced the Mercer Report earlier, but across Canada and all OECD countries, what you're seeing is that women typically will retire with about 26% less income than their male counterparts. They're also living longer on average. And so there are many issues that impact them, but I think if we can target the service element, and Nancy spoke so eloquently about having those conversations, because sometimes it does feel daunting to be able to do it all, and sometimes we don't necessarily put our hands up for roles because we have families. And I often, in my role and I'm sure you too, Nancy, get asked what's some advice for women? And I think everybody's on their own journey. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach, but I do think it's about think about the long run instead of thinking just about what's going to happen within the next 12 months. Actually sort of think about the impact on your career, but then even beyond that, on your finances, on your ability to do retirement planning, and we just need to have better conversations in that space.  

Jackie DeSouza: Yeah, you're right. And careers last a long time, right? Like I think back to when I first started working, I mean, it was over 30 years ago, right? And you think many people work for 40 years, so you've got to think, like you said, longer term, not just for that shorter period. 

Nancy Nazer: So It's really hard for people to imagine. Just look at the last couple years in terms of the post-pandemic, and some of the great gains that we've had in terms of wins for women in the workforce, we've lost some of that momentum and we can't ignore that, because there's data that there are more women leaving the workforce. There are more women impacted by certain careers and jobs that have been impacted post-pandemic, right? That in itself is going to have detrimental impact if women are the primary caregivers, the primary people who are taking the time off and what that means in later life. And I heard recently that there are some people that are saying, "You know what, I'm okay in terms of not going back into the workforce right now because I know it's going to impact career, but I've got just too much going on in terms of being, in some cases, the sandwich generation." And I worry a little bit because I think, again, we're looking at here and now today, but to your point is how can we look forward and what does that mean in terms of my financial health for the long term? How does that impact my career?  

Celine Chiovitti: Absolutely. 

Nancy Nazer: In the long term. And I think, again, I was in a conversation with someone the other day and they said, "I know in my organization, it's about visibility, it's about presence, but I'm willing to take that risk and work remotely, and I know it's going to impact my career and I'm okay with it." But again, can you look at your future self, 10 years from now or 20 years from now and say, "Well, am I still okay with it?" So these are things that I think we've lost some of the momentum and we are seeing more women in terms of global data and trends that are leaving, again, the workforce.  

Celine Chiovitti: And what we know is that women who are financially able and secure and independent create families that are financially able and communities that are thriving and vibrant. And so I just think there is this big cascading impact that we need to talk about.  

Jackie DeSouza: So Celine, we're going to talk about retirement planning now. What type of resources are out there for women to make better decisions about their retirement planning? I know this is something you're passionate about and something we're taking some steps to address.  

Celine Chiovitti: I think the resources are getting better. I don't think they're perfect. I think we all have a role to play. And so I think if I'm talking to an OMERS member, I would say sort of look at the resources you have internally with your employer, but also reach out to us. We have a ton of information and resources on our website. I know even our unions and associations have information on their website. FSRA has leaned in and has really done a lot to try and educate in the space of retirement planning, but I think if I were giving advice, the number one thing I would say is start early. So many people will sort of come to me in their 50s and say, okay, "I'm now ready to start thinking about it. I'm getting excited." Well, many of the decisions that you've made throughout your career have actually already impacted the value of your pension. And so I would say get access to as many resources that you can to educate yourself, like you would with anything else. At OMERS, we tell our members your OMERS pension is probably one of the greatest assets you will ever have. And so when we do things like send you an annual statement, have a look at it, make sure the information seems correct, make sure you understand the information, see if there are any options for you to do to optimize your pension.  

Jackie DeSouza: And certainly another way our members can learn about their pension is through our Pension Education Team that's on the road, delivering seminars and webinars to our members and employers.  

Celine Chiovitti: We have a wonderful team that goes out across the province. Again, if you go on the website, you can sign up for a webinar. We do one-on-one sessions with our members. We partner with employers and associations to do personalized sessions. So there's just so many opportunities for people to get to know about their pension. And again, I would say you're never too young to start. You don't need to do it every day, but just have a bit of a vision about it, like a perspective on what that might look like.  

Jackie DeSouza: Yeah, that's terrific. And actually on one of our podcast episodes, I'm talking to the manager of that team, the Pension Education Team, Martin Diokno.  

Celine Chiovitti: So he's phenomenal. 

Jackie DeSouza: Yeah, no, it'll be fantastic, and it'll give people a lot of information about their pension plan. So now I guess to both of you, we've talked about the gender pension gap. Are you hopeful that that gap is going to be shrinking with some of the programs that are being put in place? Not just at our company, but at others?  

Celine Chiovitti: I would say we're doing two things. One, we are educating and talking about it, right? We're having these conversations, we're having it in different forums, and so we're really, really, really trying to get in front of members so that they're educated in the space. The second thing is we're trying to make it easier for women when they do take temporary leave, go off on pregnancy, parental leave, or take some childcare leave, we're making it easier for them to purchase that service. And so, again, sometimes it feels daunting because trust me, I've been there when you've got kids to feed and rent to pay, and it's hard to sort of see beyond. We're trying to make it more affordable and easier to purchase that service early on in your career so that you don't then retire down the road with a big gap. And so a combination of education and actual action and policy changes. Do I believe it's going to change? I actually do believe it's going to change. I believe that expectations are changing. And I think with the different generations, you see different expectations, and I think you'll see multiple stakeholders come together collaboratively in support of this. So that's what I believe.  

Jackie DeSouza: That's good. I'm glad you're hopeful. What about you, Nancy?  

Nancy Nazer: I am also very hopeful, but I also would stress that we have to make sure we don't move back. And again, seeing some of the trends in the last couple years post-pandemic just shows how quickly we can lose the momentum that we've gained over the years. So it is really important for us as an organization or other organizations to say are we doing enough? Are we encouraging enough in terms of having the right initiatives, the right programs, the right awareness in terms of even people leaders, like what can we do to ensure that women stay in the workforce? And that's really, really key because I've seen programs to reintroduce women back into the workforce after they've stepped away, and they're very qualified, but they never go back exactly at the same level. It is really important for us to change that mindset. Someone who has stepped away for a couple of years and is managing a household, managing all kinds of things, doesn't have the same qualifications to go back as someone who stayed in the workforce. And that's a reality. So I think it is just really important for us to be realistic that we have a few more hurdles to go through. There are going to be more resources for us in the future, but again, how can we continue to create the right programs to give the flexibility, to give people the opportunity and create the environment that women can be successful in their careers. And again, it's not just about having children, but it is having that choice and having a life that you can, again, continue to grow and have the experiences equally as others.  

Jackie DeSouza: Right, and when you speak about the gains that may have been lost over the pandemic, are you talking about women who left the workplace during the pandemic? It was too hard to take care of children and have them do school online! 

Nancy Nazer: Yes, there was a significant trend of women leaving the workforce. And this is globally, right? That we have data access to seeing these trends, that more women were leaving for personal reasons and more men during that period were leaving for growth opportunity. And so when you see that there is a little bit of a difference in terms of people's departures. And what that does, fast forward in terms of their future and their future earnings. The other trend that we started to see is that some of the industries that more women were working in were impacted by the pandemic, so there were more job losses as well for a period of time. But again, what does that translate to in terms of longer term for one's future opportunity? So those are some things that we have to be mindful of, and again, ask ourselves if more women are leaving our workforce for personal reasons, it could be you're taking care of your elderly parents because you're not feeling comfortable putting them in a nursing home or getting care for them, so all of those things are things that we have to look at and say, again, what are the mechanisms we can create in our organization to create the right support mechanism so people have access to the resources they need when they need it so they don't need to feel that they have to leave the workforce.  

Celine Chiovitti: It's about optionality. 

Nancy Nazer: It's optionality. 

Celine Chiovitti: Yeah, totally. 

Nancy Nazer: And it's so key right now. 

Celine Chiovitti: I also am just sitting here thinking we are all mothers on at this table. We all have daughters at home. And so I do think the role modeling and sort of seeing the fact that you can juggle, and sometimes it gets more difficult than others, and it's not for everybody, to your point, people make different choices throughout their careers, but I think if I were to give one piece of advice, it's that your career is very long, so keep your eye on the ball and think of the future and then have those questions.  

Nancy Nazer: Being mothers and having daughters, how do we remove some of those obstacles that we experienced? And I think the world is a better place today. And some of the things I experienced, not being able to share my pregnancy or celebrate it right away, or not taking my full allocated time, I hope my daughter doesn't go through that. I really am hopeful that she has a very different experience and a different reality.  

Jackie DeSouza: So thank you. 

Celine Chiovitti: Thank you. 

Jackie DeSouza: That was a wonderful conversation. 

Celine Chiovitti: Thank you, Jackie.  

Nancy Nazer: Thank you, Jackie.