The Pension Blueprint podcast video transcript

Episode 3: Mental health, PTSI and your pension

The Pension Blueprint podcast    

Celine Chiovitti: Hi everyone, I'm Celine Chiovitti, Chief Pension Officer at OMERS. We all know that first responders have an incredibly difficult job. Whether they work in policing, fire services, emergency medical services, or in many other fields, they're very likely to bear witness to traumatic events throughout the course of their careers. And this isn't just anecdotal evidence. For law enforcement alone, exposure to at least one traumatic incident is 11 times higher than the average for the general population. This week on The Pension Blueprint, we're going to be talking about the importance of prioritizing your mental health, and how post-traumatic stress injury, or PTSI, affects first responders. And we're going to have three exceptional guests here to help us, Connie Dejak, Mark Baxter, and Jon Reid. 

Connie has been President of Runnymede Healthcare Centre since 2006. She's currently overseeing the development of a rehabilitation and continuing-care hospital for first responders in Toronto's West End. 

Mark has been the President of the Police Association of Ontario since 2021, representing over 28,000 members who are responsible for keeping communities safe across Ontario. Before that, he was a police sergeant with the Brantford Police Service. 

And Jon has been President of the Toronto Police Association since 2020. He's been with the Toronto Police Service for over 24 years, and included frontline policing and working in specialized investigative units. I'm so honored to be having this important conversation with these thought leaders, and we'll cover a lot of important ground, especially when it comes to the cultural changes that are happening around caring for our mental health. And for our part here at OMERS, we are helping to spark a conversation around the importance of prioritizing mental health across our members. Here's my conversation with Connie, Mark, and Jon.  

Hello everyone, I'm so thrilled to be here today, having a conversation with three phenomenal leaders in this space, really helping to pave the way for more care to our first responders across the province. So I thought I'd start by just asking each of you a bit of a personal question about what you do and why you're so connected to the cause. So maybe I'll start with you, Mark. 

Mark Baxter: Thanks, Celine. So my name is Mark Baxter.I'm the President of the Police Association of Ontario. I come from the Brantford Police Service where I was a uniformed sergeant before being elected three years ago, and just recently reelected as the President of the Police Association of Ontario. 

Celine Chiovitti: Congratulations. 

Mark Baxter: Thank you. You know, my connection to this, you know, really goes back to, when I was working in Brantford and through my work with the association there, and recognizing, you know, that members were being exposed to trauma and we didn't do enough to talk about it. And so, as I came into this role, really had an opportunity to connect with people and to be a voice for the members that didn't have a voice and didn't know where to turn or how to speak up. And so, you know, through the last three plus years of, you know, trying to advocate for members, and the member wellness has really become a real priority for me in this work and our entire organization. 

Celine Chiovitti: That's so great. Thank you. Jon, how about you? 

Jon Reid: So Celine, thank you very much for having me today. First off, I've actually been involved in police now for 36 years, and I've been at the association now for 12, and I've been the President for the last four years. And policing, for me, has been a family career, both for myself and my father, and seeing the impacts policing has on people is one of the most important thing, you know, I think we have to take notice. I think, unfortunately, police officers find themselves, they have a front seat to life, and they see people at their worst, in the worst situations. And I think we owe it to these first responders, and it's not just police officers, but fire, ambulance as well, to ensure they have the supports to kind of move forward. And that's one of the goals of the Toronto Police Association, where we saw a gap, where it wasn't actually being fulfilled by the service, and we started trying to fill the gap, and we are currently still building that capacity. Then we ended up joining up with Connie and the PTSI Centre, and that's given us a new hope to kind of build that out, and essentially move that whole conversation forward and bring it to the point where people are no longer afraid to put their hand up, which is one of the main goals. 

Celine Chiovitti: So important, so important. Thank you. And over to you, Connie. 

Connie Dejak: Thank you, and thank you for having me here today. My name is Connie Dejak, and I'm the CEO of Runnymede Healthcare Centre. Runnymede is a rehab facility. I became really involved with PTSI and mental health, really had witnessed my husband going through a critical incident as a 33-year firefighter, and noticed there were significant gaps in services. There were a lot of good programs, but it was very fragmented. 

And as I began to reflect on the job and what they're exposed to and the services we provide, we really noticed there was a stigma to getting care simply because they did not want to go into a mental health facility or into a hospital. So being a rehab facility, we all know that if you're receiving rehab, the goal is to go in, get care, and then get better. So as we started this, I wanted to change the conversation and take that little sliver of mental health and change it over to rehab so that we could address the stigma and get people back to work or back to life. It's really interesting that I met Jon and Mark and a number of other individuals who truly understood that was how we had to address this. For most first responders, they wake up, go to work, and come back different, and that's critical. So if we want to get them back to work or back to life, we have to make sure that they can access the care they need when they need it, in the facility that is specialized for them. 

Celine Chiovitti: Very, very well said. At OMERS, we are so connected to this cause and work very closely with all of you. We represent, as you know, over 600,000 members across the province of Ontario. About 50,000 of them are first responders, and so it really is very close. And so when we started having this conversation, it was really about how do we better educate and support these members and what they're doing. I want to talk a little bit more about Runnymede, but I want to keep going on your sort of phrase of stigma. And maybe I'm going to ask you, Jon, first, to talk about, do people today still have stigma in the workplace to talk about mental health supports? And do you see any differences as we are looking at different generations, like, are younger members more apt to put their hand up and say, "I need care"? 

Jon Reid: Things have definitely changed. I think when I started back in the late '80s, you know, police officers did not put their hand up. Unfortunately, we ended up with a lot of serious situations and sometimes suicides, and this was not the result we wanted. I'm finding now with the younger officers, as they're coming on, they're more willing to put their hand up and talk about their experience, and that's one of the critically important things to move the discussion forward. You know, when somebody has an issue or they have a bad call, you know, which happens on a daily basis here in Toronto, that they're able to come speak to their peers, speak to their supervisors, and if they need help, reach out. And also, as an association, that's one of our goals as well. Our goal is to get people when they retire from this job in the same condition that they came on the job, and that's one of the number one goals, and I think something for us to try and attain. 

Celine Chiovitti: So Mark, as we sort of see this next, this new workforce and our Gen Zs and millennials joining the force, and we're seeing them much more open and socially connected and more open to talking about these types of things, has that, do you think, helped and trickled into sort of the older workers within policing, to help them be a bit more vulnerable and have these conversations? 

Mark Baxter: I think to some degree, having the younger generation talk about it has, but I think in the areas and in the police departments where we see the biggest change, where you've got the older demographic coming forward, it's really as a result of the leadership. And you know, when you read the comments from Chief Pegg from the Toronto Fire Department, you know, what we need is, we need that sort of mentality throughout policing. Because if we have, and we do have some, we have some police chiefs who are really supportive and do everything they can to create an inclusive and a safe place for members struggling with mental health to come forward, and their senior command have bought in around them, and once you get the buy-in from senior leadership, the buy-in from their senior command team, and now you've got the folks at the bottom, the newest folks that are talking about their mental health, then naturally, the demographic, the people that are in the middle are going to feel that it's okay for them to come forward. When many of them have gone, you know, so many years in their career where it wasn't okay, or where there wasn't an environment where they could come forward and they've suffered in silence. And so yeah, I think it really, really starts at the top. 

Connie Dejak: And one of the things that surprised me as we were, you know, out there talking to members, was they may not understand their colleagues' stress, but a lot of the older members understood their children's stress, which was really interesting, so what we tried to do is connect the two, the anxiety. You know, they're saying, "Oh, you know, my daughter really suffers from anxiety. I'm trying to understand it." And so, you know, using their personal experience to connect the two really helped, and then they sort of, you could see that the light bulb almost went off, and it was really interesting. You know, one of the people when Mark was talking about leadership at the top, you know, the Peel Regional Police Chief has joined our Board of Directors. You know, Chief Nish has come in, and he's a very progressive thinker in that way. And I'm very encouraged that, you know, the leaders of the future and even the older members are really starting to understand this is critical. And it's not their call, it's not about them, right? It's how the individual feels. So, again, you know what? We do have some very progressive leaders in the field, and a lot of times, personal experience is their best educators. 

Celine Chiovitti: Yeah, yeah, I think like anything else, the leadership and then grassroots connecting and creating sort of a safe space. 

Jon Reid: Yeah, because I think that here in Toronto we've had some, you know, more senior officers actually come to the realization they are having a tough time and they recognize there's an issue. And I think now creating the paths and the avenues now for them to put their hand up and to come forward, and knowing that we, as an association, we're here to support them and help navigate them because that's a big part too, is not understanding how this is going to work. "How's it going to impact my job? What paperwork do I have to fill out? Who do I have to talk to or shouldn't I talk to?" And that's where the association really does kind of step in and fill that void, and help move them forward from a place where they really don't know what to do or what to say, to a place where hopefully they can get better and get back to work. 

Mark Baxter: You know, and as Jon said, over his career since 1988, you know, we're talking about it a lot more, but even since my career and I started in 2005, we're talking more about it, but there still continues to be so much stigma around members seeking help, and, you know, we're doing better than we used to. I think with the presumptive coverage that was introduced and became law around 2016, where, you know, if a first responder is diagnosed with PTSD, they're presumed to have got that diagnosis at work. And so it flows, the access to benefit flows easier. You know, we've still got lots of work to do to make sure that people are accessing the benefits that are available, and what we're seeing, you know, to Jon's point, what we're seeing a lot more is members are turning to the association still to help them access these benefits and to ask "Where do I go?" when they are coming forward. Because I would agree with Jon that there's a shift in demographic. Younger people are coming, they're talking about their mental health more. 

Celine Chiovitti: Yeah, societally, I think. 

Mark Baxter: Yeah, they're coming forward and talking about it, but they're still coming to the associations at a far greater rate than going to their employer because of the stigma, because they don't maybe want the employer to know that they're having mental health challenges, and so they're coming to the association saying, "Hey, where can I turn? Where can I get support?" 

Connie Dejak: Yeah, and Celine, I think, you know, just adding to that, it's one of the reasons why the PTSI centre, Station 3434, or the Wellness Centre in Caledon is so important. It's really purposely built. They will be getting care, the care they require, the specialized care they require, the clinical care that's needed amongst their peers, and that is critical. As we started to talk to stakeholders, I think both Jon and Mark are absolutely correct, their first line of defense is to the associations. We spent six years talking to the associations, understanding the membership, and are constantly learning about the resiliency of new recruits, the barriers to care. You know, and one of the ones which was very interesting, that shocked me, I had thought that I had heard it all, is, you know, when you're at a point in life, you've had PTSI, you've been in and out, oftentimes addictions follow, you're on the verge of losing your job, your family has disintegrated, and they wouldn't get care because they don't want to leave their dog alone. Sounds like a small point to us, but one of the things we're building is a kennel up in Caledon. 

Celine Chiovitti: I think it's going to be a game changer. And I'm going to read you a quote from Toronto Fire Chief Matthew Pegg, who I know is a near and dear friend to both of us. 

Connie Dejak: Good friend. 

Celine Chiovitti: So here's what he had to say about the work that you're doing in the center. "First responders run in when everyone else runs out. The number of potentially traumatic scenes that they attend in one week may be more than what most people experience in their lifetime. There is a huge need for the specialized mental health supports that will be offered at the center, and we know that the care that first responders will receive there will make a monumental difference in their lives and the lives of their families." And so I think that was just so well said, and I think it's important because, you know, Matthew Pegg is on the employer side as a fire chief, and so I think it's being recognized as a, you know, monumental issue in the fact that there's a gap today in the system that needs to be filled, not just on the union and association side, but also with employers. 

Connie Dejak: Absolutely. 

Celine Chiovitti: So if I am someone who requires support, I'm a first responder, I require support, maybe I don't even know I require support. Walk me through that process. How do you navigate that? 

Connie Dejak: So the whole vision is around accessing care, the type of care when it's required, and that's critical. So we have, on 3434 Dundas Street in Toronto, we will have an outpatient clinic center, and that will offer a variety of therapeutic programs and services with clinicians that will be able to treat members on an outpatient basis. We then have, in Caledon, the Region of Peel donated 25 acres to the Runnymede Healthcare Centre so that we could build a 40-bed inpatient mental health and addiction center. So that is critical as well. The third leg would be the digital support. So what we aim to do is to make sure these programs are available province-wide, and available when you need it. Currently, we do have a number of programs that exist, but there isn't this comprehensive type of service. So we know with addictions, for example, there's a number of facilities where you can receive treatment, but on average, it's about $20,000 per admission, and most first responders can't afford that if they're going in and out, if they relapse. So what we're going to be able to do is we're going to be able to support the individual, and that includes retired members because it's important to realize that just simply because you retire doesn't mean all of a sudden you forget everything that you've experienced over those 30, 40 years. So what we're going to be able to do is to offer outpatient programs, inpatient programs, digital care, and make sure that it is seamless. We will have navigators that will assist the members, and the unions, the associations and command are on side. They want people to get better, and they want them to access care when they need it, and they want them back on the job because they're very valuable. Most first responders you cannot replace, so it's important that those members that can go back to work are given a path back to work, and if they can't, then we'll support that. 

Jon Reid: It takes a huge amount of courage for a member to put their hand up and say, "I need help," because that's not what they're used to doing. They're used to being the help. When someone needs them, they're there, they assist, they come deal with the person's issues, but for them to turn around and put their hand up and ask for help, we need to ensure that those resources are there for them then. It's not uncommon now, unfortunately, if somebody does put their hand up and they need some assistance with some kind of rehab, that it takes weeks sometimes to get them in. And unfortunately, a lot can change in three weeks as far as whether someone's willing to seek that help now. That's why I think it's important to make sure those resources are there when and where needed. 

Celine Chiovitti: And your centre, the Runnymede Centre will solve that.  

Connie Dejak: Yes, well, we'll address it, and I think we're going to have to build a second one, but we'll get to that after. 

Celine Chiovitti: And can we talk, so we're talking about first responders, police and fire, ambulance, because I think it goes beyond that, does it? 

Connie Dejak: It does. 

Celine Chiovitti: Can you just educate us a little bit on that? 

Connie Dejak: Absolutely, you know, I would love to. So we have, you know, police, fire, and we did a lot of listening, and then we talked to paramedics, and the paramedics during COVID, they were so overwhelmed and stressed, and did not know what they were going to respond to. And there was another group that, Celine, I have to thank you for. When we talked to OPSEU, the 911 operators, I was so taken with the 911 operators that said, "Look, during these really long response times," for a number of reasons, not just PTSI or stress, or, you know, wait times, when a paramedic could not get to a call, the operator is the one keeping them calm. And you know, they were listening to the stress of the mom who wanted the baby being cared for, the heart attack, the whatever, and their stress levels were just going through the roof, and they said, "The stress and how it affected me personally was significant." So we have, you know, 911 operators, we have paramedics, we're also including nurses and physicians. That's critical. Nurses themselves had gone through a very difficult time during COVID and have very stressful jobs. And the last group that this group will care for is corrections. Very stressful. You know, we hear a lot about overcrowded prisons. Well, you know, never mind hearing about it, imagine having to manage it on a daily basis going in there. And I know both Mark and Jon would agree that that is a very stressful situation. 

Celine Chiovitti: Mark, you talked a little bit about this earlier, but there were legislative changes that took place, and I know that you spent a lot of time advocating for them. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that looks like? 

Mark Baxter: Yeah, sure, so, yeah, you know, obviously, in 2016, the presumptive legislation came in that covered police officers, and we've been, you know, lobbying the government since to expand that presumptive coverage to cover more members. What presumptive coverage means is that if a member is diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, it's presumed that that injury occurred on the job, and so they're automatically approved for WSIB benefits, which means they should, right away, presumably, start getting access to benefits and not have months-long waits, as what we would see before the presumptive coverage, to get treatment. So they should be- 

Celine Chiovitti: So they can access it right away. 

Mark Baxter: Yeah, they should be getting access to benefits right away. Now, civilian dispatchers, 911 call takers are covered by the presumptive coverage as our special constables, and we're continuing to work with the government to identify more civilian members that should be covered by the presumptive coverage. In May, the Ontario Government committed in the Working for Workers Five Act bill, they've committed to engaging with stakeholders to determine what classes of, or what groups of additional civilian members should be part of the PTSD presumptive coverage. So we're obviously going to be heavily involved in the consultation of that because we know that there are many more civilian members in our workplaces that, through the nature of their work, they may not be out in the field, but the nature of the work that they're doing, they're being exposed to trauma, and they're hearing things and they're seeing things, whether it's on video or audio, so we want to make sure that more of those folks are covered. Most of our associations across the province, you know, have negotiated, you know, WSIB top-up language. So when folks leave the workplace, they, for a period of time, or sometimes until they can retire, you know, will have access to WSIB benefits and will have access to top-up so they continue to receive their same salary. You know, obviously, one of the great things 

about OMERS is their pensions are protected in terms of the financial stress. Part of the work that we have to continue to do is make sure that people understand when you come forward, the financial stressors shouldn't be there for you. You should be continuing to receive benefits through WSIB, you should continue to get your pay, you should get your extended health benefits through the employer, and, you know, your OMERS pension is going to be intact. 

Celine Chiovitti: That's great. Thank you. And we do so much work with the PAO and the TPA. I know we come out quite often and partner with you to do sessions for your members. I think you've done a really great job, Jon, in facilitating that. Are we doing enough? Do you think that we are coming together and doing enough to help educate people in this space, and then just about their sort of long-term planning, especially if they have a mental illness? 

Jon Reid: So I think as far as the education piece, I think we're doing a great job. I think having OMERS come out to the TPA and engage with our members as far as the retirement seminars has been exceptional. It really goes a long way with our members. We have members who aren't actually thinking about retiring, they're just interested. And I think, once again, once we start getting people educated, understanding the value of their pension, and I'm sure I, like a lot of people, when you first start, you don't think about your pension, you don't really fully understand the value of that pension until you get a little bit older and you understand, at some point, you'll be collecting that pension. So the education, I think, is a continuous piece, and it's very important, especially with the younger people, to help them understand the value of it. As an organization, we're always engaging with our members trying to make sure, you know, they kind of move forward, mental health-wise as well, with these issues. 

Celine Chiovitti: That's great.  

Connie Dejak: You know, Celine, I had the privilege of speaking to a number of younger, 40-ish, who were going through a very difficult time, and they were firefighters. First of all, there were a number of people that were getting treatment on their off days. They were fearful of losing their job. The second thing was, with PTSI or mental health, unfortunately, sometimes addictions follow, and when that happens, they've often lost everything. So they're on the job, and yes, they have a pension, but their family life has deteriorated and they're not making the right decisions for themselves. And so we have to get people healthy so that they can, you know, go back to feeling productive. And you know, you don't become a firefighter or paramedic or a police officer unless you have that, you know, DNA to serve. They all serve. They all want to help, so getting them back out of their basements and helping them understand that there is support for them and they can start getting back on track financially, emotionally, psychologically, and physically, is extremely important because it does hit a certain segment, and they are at risk of losing their jobs, and that is really tragic. You know, there's also a really big financial hit to municipalities and to different cities. 

Celine Chiovitti: 100%, yeah. 

Connie Dejak: City of Toronto, for example, before the legislation, it was at $3 million. After, I think two years ago, it was at $42 million in terms of services. That's just one. And so there's a real need to invest in people and not wait and see until after, you know, they've lost everything. 

Celine Chiovitti: So we've talked a little bit about how we could partner in that space and I think there's a role for everybody here. Like, what I'm hearing is there's a role for sort of the unions and associations, the employers, OMERS as sort of a partner to kind of help with that education and working with Runnymede, and I know you have some thoughts about how we can do that. 

Connie Dejak: We really believe that collaboration is key, and we're looking at our governance model as well, and you see our two key partners will be sitting at that. We believe that this is part of it, is bringing the whole issue to the surface. Going in and, you know, OMERS allowing us to really educate individuals as to who we are and what's coming for them, giving them hope, supporting municipalities, supporting the command, and I think through that, as we start, I think even Jon and Mark, a lot of members are coming to them, and now they're saying, "When? When is it going to come?" You know, they're very excited about it. So I think as we move forward and we start with these podcasts, with education, with, you know, a number of series of where we could come in and support, we have so many individuals that are ready to share. And one of the things I didn't mention is that we're the first in Canada for a facility of this kind, and we will probably most likely be the only research facility in Canada, so having that critical mass to analyze and look at triggers and to look at it in a preventative way is critical. And I think that's where OMERS and the hospital can really partner. How can we help people stay on the job before it becomes too late? And that's, you know, contributing to that pension. We all know, as Jon mentioned, the longer you're on the job, the greater the pension. So if you could stay on the job, be healthy and contribute to society in a meaningful way, that's all of our goal, really. 

Celine Chiovitti: When I'm going back to my interview with that Chief Pegg, and one of the things that he said is he tries to really break it down and make it okay and accessible for people on his fire service to be vulnerable. And he talked about, you know, he speaks very openly about every year he does, what he calls, the “checkup from the neck up”, and I know he said that to you before. And so not only is it important for me to go and get a physical checkup, it's important for me to get a checkup from the neck up. And so I'm looking really at you, Jon, and Mark, because I think it's so important, just in your leadership capacities and the people who look up to you every day to see the vulnerability. And just wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. Do you have these types of conversations with your members? Do you think they're important? What can we do to make them comfortable to come forward? 

Jon Reid: So these are critically important conversations. We actually go and we speak to all the recruits that come through Toronto, and then we're averaging probably 300-400 new recruits a year, and that's just the police officers, not to mention special constables and civilians. And we speak to them, we talk to them about making sure they're okay, making sure they're making mental health a priority for themselves. You know, we'll discuss with them, you know, the issues they may face in the years to come, but also talk to them about going out and maybe seeking out a psychologist now, right? Having that connection already with that psychologist so they can actually kind of go and check in with them, as you've discussed. Or if, God forbid, they end up with an incident which occurs and they need to talk to somebody, they already have that relationship set up, so the trust is there, the relationship's there. They can make the telephone call, go in and see the psychologist and talk about what happened, and hopefully kind of allow them to put things back together after that terrible incident they may have been witness to or part of. 

Connie Dejak: You know, one of the critical things, and I've talked to both Mark and Jon about this, Chief Pegg and a number of others is, you know, that safe zone. We talk about that, and what we're hoping to do is to take that information and really have it as part of someone's health record so that they don't feel as if it's going to impact their job. They don't feel they have to go to the wellness unit, for example, as great as, you know, they may be. They don't have to walk up down to, you know, headquarters and go up to the sixth, seventh, eighth floor, whatever it is, fifth, sixth floor. They can go to the hospital with no one knowing, they can access a telephone call or a visit with no one knowing. It will be secure like their health record would be, and so that is critical to providing, as Mark said earlier, a safe place to go in and receive treatment, but also that safe call. A lot of people feel as if it's a sign of weakness, when they're police officers, fire or paramedics, and we're saying have the strength to come in and let's work together. 

Mark Baxter: And I think the sooner we can get folks in, as Jon said, they're talking to all their new recruits, the sooner we can get folks in talking, you know, to a psychologist or to some other mental health professional, then yeah, it just sort of becomes natural, it becomes part of, as you said, as Chief Pegg says, it becomes part of their every-year checkup. And we have great organizations now that do provide mental health support for members, but you know, we got to get folks out there, really. And one of the organizations that we're working with, through the Canadian Police Association, is the Public Safety Personnel Network. It's a federally-funded network. They've got a families’ branch, Public Safety Net Families Branch, and they're actually starting to now come to the Ontario Police College on graduation, and they have pamphlets that they give out to every graduate's family members, to say, "Hey, this is how you can access benefits." And, you know, we've talked at length with them and their goal is that, at some point in the future, their family member may say, "Hey, I think that you need to go talk to someone," and they'll remember, "Oh, I got this pamphlet at the graduation," and they'll pick up the phone and they'll call and get access to the resources, but I think keeping the families connected and letting the families know and understand where resources are available, I think that's really critically important as well. 

Jon Reid: And I think, building on what Mark was just talking about, there's the families too, which often get forgotten. You know, we have police officers, firefighters, paramedics, they leave every day and we expect them to come back, but unfortunately, sometimes they don't come back or they get injured, or even, God forbid, they just hear a police officer, a firefighter, a paramedic was injured on the news. I can tell you every family hopes it's not their loved one. And I think that does really wear on families. Obviously, some families deal with it differently than others. But also, you know, as Mark was talking about, making sure that that family knows that support's also there for them as well. 

Connie Dejak: And I think even, you know, from my experience, my personal experience, you get a confidential letter in the mail, but that's just not enough. It's just not enough, and that's what usually happens. You know, you'll get a letter and saying, "If you need help, go in." And so that's why, you know, we want not just retirees, but we want the family members to be able to have access, and a big part of our program will be that reunification as well. We need to bring families together. The stronger the family unit, the stronger the member, and the more likelihood they will come back to work, and that's ultimately the goal. 

Mark Baxter: It's impossible to prevent someone from getting PTSD, and the research says that. There are ways to manage it, there are ways to sort of prepare yourself, you know, build some resilience leading up to it. But at the end of the day, most first responders are going to be exposed to a level of trauma that it's going to bother them at some point, and, you know, it's really important to be able to reach out. 

Celine Chiovitti: Well, thank you. I want to thank each of you for coming and sharing your stories, and just for the important work you're doing in advocating in this space. It's so very important. I am just humbled to be at this table, and look forward to doing great work with you in this space. 

Connie Dejak: You know, without this avenue to talk openly and to really express our desires to help, I don't think change would occur, and I think you're a big part of that change, so thank you so much to you and OMERS. 

Celine Chiovitti: Thank you. 

Jon Reid: Thank you very much.